Market Proof Marketing Podcast with Dennis O'Neil

To listen to this podcast episode, visit Ep 56: The Facebook Fear Factor with Dennis O’Neil.

Kevin Oakley  0:12  

Welcome to Market Proof Marketing – the weekly podcast from the marketing minds at where we talk about the current state of all things digital and how they impact home builders and developers around the globe. We’re not here to sell you, we’re here to help you and to try and elevate the conversation. I’m Kevin Oakley and with us as always, is what? I’m Kevin Oakley and with us as always, is the the ad doctor, Andrew Peek, who rewrote that? I thought my mind was melting. That is not what I normally say.


Andrew Peek  0:41  

That is not what you say is I don’t even know what you normally say. Cuz I remember I took over the last episode. I’m like, I read it. This it felt amazing. I’m like, I’m reading this. I’m so privileged. So honored. And then I had to put in what you normally have, and I just tried to write it out. Ah,


Kevin Oakley  0:58  

It all makes sense. That all makes sense.


Andrew Peek  0:59  

But the Yeah, this is 56. And we have Jackie this week.


Jackie Askews  1:03  

Hi, everyone, it’s great to be back, as always


Andrew Peek  1:08  

as always, as always, yeah. Another one. Should we jump into some story time? I feel like we always have really, really long episodes and even if we try to make them shorter, it’s not gonna happen.


Kevin Oakley  1:17  

No, I think this time we have a direction we try to make the longest one possible. I feel like I haven’t regretted anything and so long because the whole train up I we had PCBC then I was in DC, now I’m going on summer vacation at the end of June. Just more travel than normal. I’ve been the holdup. But I think I wrote only one story out but I have three so we could make this the longest one yet. If we want to.


Andrew Peek  1:20  

longest episode ever. That could just be the name of it. Three hours. 


Jackie Askews  1:42  

Three-hour long episode. That’s right. I just have to tell my in laws. I’ll be there by like eight tonight. 


Kevin Oakley  1:52  

I feel like we should title the episode “Payback.” You know, like you didn’t hear us for so long. This is payback.


Andrew Peek  1:58  

Right? Part 1, 2, 3? That’s awesome. That’s awesome. All right, Andrew, kick us off. Yeah, kick us off. So this is a fun one. I just think I keep on


Yeah, kick us off. So this is a fun one. 


Kevin Oakley  2:10  

I’m making you a t-shirt, by the way, that says “this is a fun one.”


Andrew Peek  2:13  

everything is fun. That’s how you should live your life, you should be filled with joy. Right? You should be fun. So important. There you go. So this is a mucho fund one, or actually it can be quite frustrating. This opposite. This is a very frustrating one. I think it’s important for people, when they’re having conversations about cost per lead, or just the number of leads or attribution, that “A” word – it’s almost a four letter word in my mind, because it’s so complex – to to understand and actually apply it to, to your business, but just you separating the types of leads you have when you are looking at cost per lead or conversion rates, or, Hey, where did that lead actually come from? So in my mind, there would be, I guess we could say, three or four different categories of leads. They’ll be brand term leads, like if you’re bidding in Google Ads, that’d be like just the name of your company. Right? So that should have really high conversion rates, and really low cost per lead. But you’re kind of just robbing from organic search. Sorta. Right? Yeah, I think we all agree.


Kevin Oakley  2:18  

I think some people see it as boxing out competitors who are, and there’s a little bit of that. But for the most part, when you see that happen, you end up seeing the paid ad right above the organic result. So it’s a little bit like an old school times, we would put weekend directionals out and then in front of the neighborhood, you might put two, it’s like you’re here now. For sure.


Andrew Peek  3:41  

Yeah, exactly. So then you’re just kind of in my mind, you’re really just shifting where the leads, what bucket they’re in. And so some agencies might do that, where they’re like, Oh, you know, leads, cost per lead is amazing from paid search, but kind of leaving out the the asterisks that like, Oh, 30, 40, 50% of these are actually brand terms. So the cost per lead is actually this. And that would be the other type of lead would be non brand term leads, kind of those those two buckets. And then within that, if we look at it at the community level, there would then be coming soon leads, which should be relatively inexpensive, just depending on if it’s Facebook lead or a Google AdWords lead. So where did it come from? And then if you’re using a landing page, or not a landing page, and you could keep adding all these different rules to it, but sure, coming soon community versus a normal, actively selling community, because one person is just getting on a list, the other person is reaching out saying, Hey, I’m interested I possibly want to visit or make an appointment. So the cost will be different conversion rates will be drastically different. So just having all those boxes separate, and understanding that they will be different. And that’s okay. I think is,


Kevin Oakley  4:56  

you know, I just think there is a special place, in H-E-double hockey sticks for people who try to directly confuse


a thing, but it has a special place there for marketers or ad agencies who tried to confuse intentionally owners division presidents, whoever, by merging those streams and not clarifying that in any way. I think that’s, that’s the part where, especially like landing page, no landing page, that’s an easy, it should just be an Asterix. In fact, about a year and a half ago, I joined a Facebook group, I think it’s called Facebook Ads Betterment Society, I think Will Duderstadt even introduced me to it and I hung out there because it was interesting to see what other people might say, but just yesterday, someone posted in there a question to the group. And it was, I’m confused why I’m still getting low quality or erroneous email and phone information from Facebook lead ads, even when I tried to make a higher intent ad. It’s still not right. And I just feel like it makes no sense. Because if people are giving me contact information, don’t they want me to contact them? And I just cracked up, like, laugh out loud. Like, you don’t get it?


Andrew Peek  6:10  



Kevin Oakley  6:11  

you’re trying to just get a conversion as quickly as possible with as little context as possible. And you know, they don’t. So they don’t want even marketers in Facebook groups like this one apparently don’t understand sometimes the difference between what you just broke out so yeah,


Andrew Peek  6:27  

I would think like understanding that is easy to explain to whatever level if you’re having to go up two chains of like, executive or whatever it’s making report for them, they will totally get coming soon versus normal, actively selling community. It’s not something after like, Oh, I’m gonna protect them from too much data. I think it’s totally fair. Yep. End of the fun story. 


Jackie Askews  6:53  

Love it. Awesome. Do you want me to


dive in? Yeah, go for it. Okay, so this week, I’m going to go into the power of word of mouth. And like, last story, this kind of has the same context with the carpets. So this past week, I had a family member get her carpets cleaned by a well known highly marketed company here in Pittsburgh. And unfortunately for her and them, she had a horrible experience. And when they cleaned the upstairs carpets, they used an overabundance of cleaner solution that went through her floorboards upstairs and dripped from the ceiling down on to the hardwood floors on the first floor.


Kevin Oakley  7:39  

Oh my god, you’re gonna say they sucked up their cat in the machine. This is worse.


Jackie Askews  7:45  

Well, exactly.


I didn’t either. I didn’t either. And so when


Kevin Oakley  7:51  

did you guys have to memorize poems in middle school? Or maybe a fifth grade? Remember the poem, spaghetti, spaghetti all over the place? No. Just me. Everyone wanted to do that poem that was just about spaghetti coming out of the pot, like filling up the whole house and under the chair.


Jackie Askews  8:09  

That’s what you immediately though of? Yeah.


Well, so what happened was when she went back to the company to see if they could either come fix clean up or help with a solution, they didn’t do anything, they explain that that’s how much they use. For every house, they didn’t really factor in the padding different things with the carpet. And they just said sorry. So in this hyper connected world, where was the first place, she went to vent after coughing up that $600 and being told tough cookies, where


Andrew Peek  8:41  

I think that facebook, facebook,


Kevin Oakley  8:43  

she has a Twitter account, it’s gone there first, but probably exactly as Facebook,


Jackie Askews  8:47  

Twitter would have probably gotten the step by step in the live, like live feed. I feel like if that was the case, but instead, it was this really not very nice Facebook post about the company just warning her friends in a sense, which I don’t blame her 600 bucks, I’d be pretty upset too. And so the post was shared by six friends. And I was following along because again, it being a family member, I totally understand. But one of the friends I didn’t know, was going on and saying she was just horrified and actually cancelled her upcoming appointment with them. So I don’t know if you guys noticed this too. But I’m noticing an increase lately with people on Facebook who are posting for recommendations. They want to know, you know, from the people they know. So I was I was amazed I was by, you know, going through some of these that people are asking for recommendations. And I was surprised by how many people actually speak up when asked. And just another one off the top of my head is recently someone posted about a barber any barber recommendations in the local area, and had over 60 comments on it or so just made me think of the Nielsen reports about that 92% of consumers believe suggestions from friends and family more than advertising. And people refer others because they want to share something they love, not just because they might get a discount voucher for it for future use. And that same goes with something negative when that happens as well. So there’s much more to word of mouth advertising and marketing than just I think some people go in with do a good job and hope for a referral. And just 65% of consumers some I forget where exactly I heard this, but they cut ties with the brand, sometimes over just one single poor encounter. And so it’s important to create an amazing customer experience and sharing it. So for homebuilders, I think it’s the testimonial side of things. Now taking the time to collect and prominently displayed the honest reviews of the product. And even if it’s someone is willing to shout about the business, make sure you know that people get a chance to hear it and take it capitalize on the good. Since so many people I feel like now are quick to post negative.


Kevin Oakley  11:18  

Yeah, that’s why the businesses have to go beyond because it also feels kind of ridiculous to go live to Facebook and say, yay, this company showed up when they said they would, right, like that’s. And and yet businesses all the time, not just home builders. So businesses are like I don’t understand I’m doing what I said I would do. And I’m not getting enough good reviews and well Hmm. Showing up, while, perhaps exceptional is not something that someone else wants to brag about for you. Right, that’s just…


Andrew Peek  11:49  

I agree.


Jackie Askews  11:49  

It made me also think of a lot of the referral programs that I’ve seen come up across and I know being with a home builder in the past,, I know that we’re very big having those referral programs in place the realtor programs. And I think it is true. The fact that I know where we built our house, we had everyone ask that, you know, friends and family. How was your experience? Do you recommend them? And I also know a handful of friends that built with the same company that you know, got it mixture of good and bad. I know Andrew, you’ve gone through this. It’s fresh in the brain for you too.  So your friends, I’m sure friends and family are hearing about your experience. 


Andrew Peek  12:32  

Which is crazy, because it’s like, just our area, I’m sure it’s just like that where you are. It’s like, half of our friends could be possible buyers for this. It’s crazy.


Kevin Oakley  12:40  

Yeah, I’m telling you.  It’s obviously the reticular activator system in my brain because it’s what I do. But if I go to a soccer field, if I’m if I’m at a party, someone is talking about real estate, and someone mentions a community of new homes somewhere and I’m always like, it’s like radar. So like, like every where it is. It is and there’s so many. Yeah, just keep keep going on that word of mouth is is obviously huge. And it’s the hardest to hack. Yeah, I mean, you can go viral. But that’s different than getting positive word of mouth. Have you heard is different than you have to hear like, these are the best folks ever.


Jackie Askews  13:20  

That maybe as you get older you life gets crazy. And you have less time to research as much. So the first thing you do is talk to friends and family. I think just making sure that customer experience is a good one and trying to fix any mistakes you can if there’s something that you I was just shocked that the company didn’t give her some discount or money back or someone else. Now, I know every situation is different. But that just stuck with me. You know, that’s not good. And I feel like that probably really hurt the company at the end of the day.


Kevin Oakley  13:50  

Yeah, well, and the triple down bad thing that this company did is in a way they kind of blamed they didn’t just take no blame themselves. They kind of blamed your friend by obviously alluding to the fact that it must be her home or her carpet of course, like it’s not us that caused the problem somewhere. I remember when the Dyson vacuum cleaner first came out to Yeah, at Heartland people would call up all the time about you know, a bunch of fibers or the carpet being pulled up and the carpet installers like you know, you are using Dyson, Well, those are just too strong. They just suck up the carpet. Too much and so sorry. Don’t use, I mean, I don’t know what to tell you but your vacuum. It’s like


Andrew Peek  14:29  

that’s all first thoughts. Yeah, the carpet like Exactly. Everyone’s buying this vacuum. Now this is not going to work..


Jackie Askews  14:36  

Well, the hype was real for that.


Kevin Oakley  14:38  

Yeah. Uh huh. I’ve got I’ve got some positive word of mouth to share my own actually in my story. So sweet. If you remember, I think it was Episode 54. We talked about the the Dor “d-o-r” product that you could put as a thermal camera above a doorway to do counting of traffic units. Oh, yeah, yeah. And so quick review, right, found an email in the spam box, I set up a call had the call. They’re like, we can’t tell you pricing someone else to tell you hadn’t heard back from them since then, about three weeks ago. And an email shows up. I think in the promotions box. I don’t know where it came from. But Michael, the CEO of the company sent an email now it looked like it came from a CRM, there’s a graphical header of the company logo, it’s got his picture, and then a footer. So it looks like a form letter that you get all the time from CEOs. And he’s talking about, you know, when they started the company a few years ago, where they got in the business, that they’ve had some things but they’re working, make it all better. And at the end, he says, if you have a moment, I would enjoy hearing your biggest challenge with growing your business just hit reply. And let me know. And of course, as marketers, and somewhat skeptical folks. I’m like, you know what? Like Michaels not getting this email, but I’m going to go ahead, I’m just going to go ahead because I, I hadn’t heard back from them. I know a couple other builders had reached out and had similar conversations are like, well, I talked for 10 minutes. And I supposed to hear back from some else with pricing. And I was just like, I’m gonna hit reply. And I’m going to tell Michael. And I think this is nice, I’ll just tell you exactly what I said. I said, I’ve referred many companies your way. And yet no one seems to be able to get actual pricing or order units yet. They keep getting stuck with someone else will follow up, but they never do. That’s my biggest challenge. And to their credit, in two minutes, Michael emails me back, and includes other folks from the team as well. And I think one of them is the head of their sales department. And so he hops in is like, hey, let me know who these people were will take care of them. I’m on a call with a builder partner, so I can’t get back them right away. He goes ahead and look through the CRM and finds two of them in there. And it’s like, here’s the latest with them. Here’s who talked to them. He even goes back. And he’s like, I’ve listened to the podcast, sorry to hear. And we ended up in the spam folder the first time, but super responsive. And I was like, okay, timeout guys, I separate these into two different bodies. It’s now I still want to get home builders access to your product and information and see if this works or not. Because if it does be great, but at the same time, on a separate level, you’ve impressed me tremendously, because I’ve replied to CEO letters before and get nothing because it just goes to the black box mysterious, you know, home or no one ever replies or looks at it. And so I was like, Hey, here’s the deal. Here’s who we are. Here’s what I’d like to help you with, potentially if your products great. You want to come on the podcast? And I’m like, Sure, yeah, you know, so I think I think the CEO is gonna come on weeks and talk to us, but I just was like, okay, as much as this is a kind of a technological product. We talk a lot about tech, we love tech and how great it is. And even though tech in the CRM sense was the thing that probably sent that initial email out, they had to have the human beings on the back end. And it changed around everything. Because up until that point, I was starting to just slowly, not a huge deal to me really, but slowly getting more and more annoyed, as frustrated. I’ve now put this company’s name out there. I know some people are reaching out. And I don’t want anyone to have a bad experience. So I thought that was awesome. And I’m looking forward to having him on. And we can talk about how their product works and other industries that have used it and just kind of the idea of counting traffic in general. And anyway, that’ll be me.


Andrew Peek  18:17  

That’s awesome. Yeah, that’d be awesome. It’d be cool to have a few builders up and running. And then kind of like be able to tie those two episodes together. That’d be like, Yeah, all in one.


Kevin Oakley  18:28  

Yeah. No, it’s great. Okay, so like I said, I’m just going to keep rolling because I got I got two other funnels. I got a bunch when I was at PCBC had dinner with Steve Shoemaker. Who else was there? That sounds like fun… Steve. Steve’s owner, Vernon. Better? Yeah, even better. Those are two of my favorite people in this industry. And we started talking about Disney the company, and how great it is. And one of them had even talked to Disney about doing training. I think Matt Riley was there with us. Maybe that was another one. Anyway, we were talking about how great they are and how good they do with customer service. And it kind of threw out there this idea that I don’t think Disney the company could be a thing that started today, because it’s so inefficient, how they do things, it’s so incredibly inefficient, that it’s incredibly expensive to go visit a Disney park. Because it is such a unique experience. Right? They don’t, they don’t scrimp on anything, they repaint the park wherever necessary. Every night, they, you know, everything is cast members are just sent out to cause random acts of magic to happen. And if you were to tell a group of investors that we’re going to do this incredibly inefficient thing in today’s hyper efficient hyper technology focused world, I just don’t know that anyone would be able to start a company like that from scratch today. And so then we were like, Well, let’s think about the last decade, what companies kind of come close to that. You could argue that Apple while over a decade over the last decade has transitioned to Amazon, right? Those are the two that we came up with. Yet Amazon is all about the business of not creating human interaction. Like the magic, original magic of I order something it showed up in a box quickly. And that was convenient, is not wearing off. But there’s no actual brand loyalty that I have to Amazon, the product delivery part of Amazon, I think amazon prime video, I think I use Amazon photos. There’s other parts of Amazon, that would be stickier for me. But if another company at scale said, we can ship you a product in two hours. And it’s easy and quick. And we’ve got a great app experience and reviews and ratings. And it was 5% less than Amazon by Amazon, right? Like it’s not Yeah, true. It’s not the same emotional level that when when Steve was talking about it, you know, they went around in a circle. And with their sales team, and everyone shared their Disney experience and like half the room cried taking the family to Disney.


Andrew Peek  20:59  

Yeah, I feel like Disney the film, the characters spanning How many? I don’t even know generations. This is what the conclusion was, but like without that Disney is not Disney. Like Yeah. Like Yeah, like a great grandmother all the way down to the Grand child. That’s a year to and it’s like, there’s that character for everybody. That is yes, like the the core.


Jackie Askews  21:25  

And I think even just growing up, I think back to my favorite family vacations. And I’ll I’ll sit here and say mine were was going to Disney with my whole family. So I definitely 


Kevin Oakley  21:34  

and that goes back to why I think it couldn’t happen again. Because the inefficiency. And then the requirement of decades of that inefficiency continued to happen before you reach this tipping point of multi generational, nostalgic, shared experience thing happening. But then the conversation also switched over to this amazing technology, which I’m just going to call an iPad on wheels will put a link in the show notes what this is, but it’s you know, basically a Segway like looking device wheel base with a long pole, you put an iPad on top, or an iPad, like device has two cameras on it. And we were talking I think it’s good all homes has used this in the wild. And we’re talking about its use as basically an online salesperson letting someone come into a property, you open the door through that code. And here is this iPad on wheels and the online sales persons faces. They’re kind of like FaceTime, talking to you and and following you around at least the first floor because they can’t go upstairs of the home answering questions.


Andrew Peek  22:37  

Yeah, and really weird. It doesn’t


Jackie Askews  22:40  

I don’t know if I’d like that yet.


Kevin Oakley  22:43  

Right? And we’re, we’re more techie folks. But Vernon said, you know, the first minute was a little bit strange, he said, but then it just became very, very natural to him. And he was he was, there’s like someone else was there and they were talking to them. And it’s relatively inexpensive. I think around three grand plus the iPad, I don’t know if there’s a another service expense, monthly service expense to make it run. Anyway, we’re talking about that. And the next day, this is a long story. This is what longest episode ever. Next day at PCBC, we’re talking about the the keynote speaker was talking about, you know, change and disruption and technology and, and talking about how humans and human thought and how important that are and storytelling and the human connection and, and it just kind of brought it all back to me that Disney would never use an iPad on wheels to welcome you to Main Street USA. Right? That would be way more efficiently. Not Yeah, it would be way more efficient. But if you’re going to pay thousands of dollars to go on a trip, like that’s not happening. So I think it to me, it cemented this kind of new core thought process, which is, as marketers or sales people are technologists, we always want to find the best current solution using technology. But we also have have to constantly remind ourselves that the best solution is a human solution. And so while the iPad on wheels may solve a problem of we can’t hire a salesperson to hang out at every inventory home that’s an hour away from each other, just to wait for someone to walk by, I understand that you’re not going to do that, that that might be how Disney would approach it. I don’t know. But this might be the best solution for now. But we can’t just say well check that off. We’ve solved that problem with technology. Because the best technology would be more like Uber saying, Hey, I’m in route to go to this home in the next 10 minutes and find a way using technology to connect its sales person who’s available to show up and be there. live and in person.


Andrew Peek  24:48  

Yeah, especially if they didn’t have to drive that person. So that sales person can still kind of if they’re working, they can switch tasks, if that makes any sense. Hmm. Like their offices moving. They could just be in an Uber all day just go into different spots. I’m driving while working answering the phone, which is really what


Kevin Oakley  25:06  

it’s how the existing home market the used home market functions.


Dennis O’Neil  25:11  

Exactly. Yeah.


Kevin Oakley  25:12  

So file this under interesting, just a story. But I think there’s something there too. As you listen that hopefully we spark some ideas in your brain. I’m going to save my third one for next week. But we have got so many more stories to share. Let’s let’s hop over to the news


Andrew Peek  25:32  

and I make my quick live update.


Kevin Oakley  25:34  

Oh yeah,


Andrew Peek  25:35  

yeah, just because like Lindsay just we haven’t closed yet on the house. But there’s been we had the private inspection. There’s some things that were found are getting that fixed that allow. Then Lindsay got a email from I’m 99% sure that division president which she should not have his email. That’s another story. Anyways, it seems like we have our delay. We’re supposed to close next Monday, next next Monday. The 24th. Yeah, it’s like, Hey, we should have a good idea of when that will be by the end of next week. We’ll keep you advised. There’s all the stuff he was referencing and the email. So yeah, why they possible today we’re going to be living in my parents house or her parents.


Kevin Oakley  26:18  

I’m gonna go along. Yeah. I guess the weekend July 15.


Andrew Peek  26:23  

Oh,gosh. Oh, man. I might find a hotel for amount of time.


Kevin Oakley  26:31  

Yeah, sorry, man.


Andrew Peek  26:33  

We’ll fi